No more support for windows

[Peter via bind-users]

When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
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[Peter via bind-users]

On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>
> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>
> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>
> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the
> discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team?
> Logistical support for the project?
>
> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't
> like your decision".
>
Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will
not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.

Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and
supported (isc.org)
<https://lists.isc.org/pipermail/bind-users/2021-June/104719.html>

[Ondřej Surý]

Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this note in the footer:

ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.

--
Ondřej SurÃœ — ISC (He/Him)

My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.

> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>
> 
> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>>
>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>>
>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>>
>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>>
>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>>
> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>
> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>
>
>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> bind-***@lists.isc.org
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

[Peter via bind-users]

Well its clearly not working so it needs to change just like DDNS is
free but you can paid for a subscription thats easy to do or SSL is free
for 90days but you have the option to pay easily for a year but that
might not work for bind for windows so it needs to be a subscription to
run it at least for windows so it can be supported. This would mean some
type of activation that can't work on another system how thats done I
don't know like what if the system its running on goes down and you have
to put bind on another system how do you deal with that and so
on....maybe if you do a year subscription of some amount you get 12 one
time keys in a file that bind uses each month to valid your use and
removes a key this list can be updated to add more keys as you extend
the subscription so in the event the system dies you have some keys for
a new system.

But I don't really see this happening would like to be proven wrong.......

[Peter Coghlan]

What I find ironic is that here:

https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md

the very first line says:

"BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."

If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
platform.

Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
it's objectives are?

I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
one.

On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?

Regards,
Peter Coghlan.

>
> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
> note in the footer:
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
> --
> Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
>
> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
>
>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>>
>> 
>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>>>
>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>>>
>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>>>
>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>>>
>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>>>
>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>>
>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> _______________________________________________
>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> bind-users mailing list
>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

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bind-users mailing list
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[Ondřej Surý]

Peter,

do you seriously think that this word play is going to help the BIND 9
support for Windows? So, I am asking you, what’s your serious
proposal what should we do?

I’ve had asked if people are willing to invest time, effort or money
into keeping the Windows support alive. I would rather accept an
external contributor with a commitment rather than just a fat cheque,
because Windows support isn’t really something we are putting our
heart in.

The ISC is working on improving BIND 9 day and night (in fact, it’s
almost 11pm here), and we are spread thin, and we have to prioritise.
And if I had to answer the question whether I and my team should
spend time improving BIND 9 just for everybody or invest the precious
time into fixing yet another incompatibility between POSIX/SUSv2 and
Windows world, I think the answer would be always: Let’s improve
things for majority of our users. It’s just simple as that.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
***@isc.org

> On 4. 6. 2021, at 20:37, Peter Coghlan <***@beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
>
> What I find ironic is that here:
>
> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md
>
> the very first line says:
>
> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."
>
> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
> platform.
>
> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
> it's objectives are?
>
> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
> one.
>
> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?
>
> Regards,
> Peter Coghlan.
>
>>
>> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
>> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
>> note in the footer:
>>
>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
>> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>> --
>> Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
>>
>> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
>>
>>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>>>
>>> 
>>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>>>>
>>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>>>>
>>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>>>>
>>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>>>>
>>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>>>
>>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>>
>>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>>
>>>
>>> bind-users mailing list
>>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> bind-***@lists.isc.org
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

_______________________________________________
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ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


bind-users mailing list
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https://lis

[Gregory Sloop]

This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.

So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.

So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.

I'd consider that highly portable.

You're welcome to disagree, but then someone else will complain it's not available in Amiga, Atari and under Dos and complain it isn't "portable" because there's no dos version.

So how many platforms do you have to support, to call it portable?
(I've always thought of "portable" code, in this context especially, as code that is kept open so it will fairly easily compile on any *nix/posix platform without too much drama. And I think that's a pretty universal understanding for *nix style code.)

So, it seems you are tilting at windmills, complaining about Windows only.

Yes, the fundamentals of Windows are *VERY* different than any Linux/Unix/Solaris etc based platform. As such, making it work across all those platforms is really quite a lot of work.
(Making it work fine, even on the future supported platforms (*nix) isn't trivial - obviously adding Windows to the mix is far, far more!)

And, it seems like no-one has stepped up to commit the $$$ needed to keep that support going.
Even a cheap dev probably charges $100+ an hour. How many hours/dollars do you think, in aggregate, is committed to keeping Windows support? It's not going to be like buying a $3 app for your phone - since the market for Windows users is far smaller.

And, I suspect, if we reach the end of the road for Windows support, and there's a half million users out there that want BIND supported on Windows, and they'll all pledge a buck a year, than I'd expect that Windows support will roll right out.

But if instead there's 100 people willing to pledge even $100 a year, well I'd guess that's not likely to pay for it.

ISC manages to pay the people who write code and do support through support contracts. Do you have one of those?

So the last option is;
You, or someone else to simply give away their time for free.
You up for that?
If you're not, or you don't have that skill set, then complaining bitterly seems a little hypocritical.

ISC already releases a huge set of software that you almost certainly use every single day (DHCP server and clients, along with BIND) and they aren't charging you a dime for that use. They're not charging your ISP either, or a ton of other people. So, IMO, they've really done a ton of free work for the community already.

But it seems like you think it's not enough.

Sigh.
What. Can. I. Say.
ISC does a lot of really good work.
IMO, this kind of a complaint is really misplaced.

And to be clear, I won't engage in a bunch of back-and-forth arguing this position. You're welcome to agree or not.
But *I* think you're obviously wrong, and I want everyone at ISC who does all that good work, developing great software that they let us use for free that I really appreciate their work.

-Greg



PC> What I find ironic is that here:

PC> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md

PC> the very first line says:

PC> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
PC> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."

PC> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
PC> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
PC> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
PC> platform.

PC> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
PC> it's objectives are?

PC> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
PC> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
PC> one.

PC> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
PC> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
PC> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
PC> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?

PC> Regards,
PC> Peter Coghlan.


>> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
>> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
>> note in the footer:

>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
>> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.

>> --
>> Ondřej SurÃœ — ISC (He/Him)

>> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.

>>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:

>>> 
>>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:

>>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.

>>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.

>>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?

>>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".

>>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.

>>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)



>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

>>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


>>> bind-users mailing list
>>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
PC> _______________________________________________
PC> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

PC> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
PC> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


PC> bind-users mailing list
PC> bind-***@lists.isc.org
PC> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

[Eric Germann via bind-users]

Call me naive, but I’m trying to figure out what the corner case is to use BIND on Windows.

For an internal network Windows Server already has a name server that integrates with AD and everything else needed to run a Windows network. Support for DDNS is a lot easier, it has tons of SRV records needed for service location, etc. It seems it would be a lot easier to use that for a Windows network than shoehorn everything in to BIND.

---
Eric Germann
ekgermann {at} semperen {dot} com || ekgermann {at} gmail {dot} com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericgermann <https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericgermann>
Twitter: @ekgermann
Telegram || Signal || Phone +1 {dash} 419 {dash } 513 {dash} 0712

GPG Fingerprint: 89ED 36B3 515A 211B 6390 60A9 E30D 9B9B 3EBF F1A1







> On Jun 4, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Gregory Sloop <***@sloop.net> wrote:
>
> This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.
>
> So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.
>
> So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
> And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.
>
> I'd consider that highly portable.
>
> You're welcome to disagree, but then someone else will complain it's not available in Amiga, Atari and under Dos and complain it isn't "portable" because there's no dos version.
>
> So how many platforms do you have to support, to call it portable?
> (I've always thought of "portable" code, in this context especially, as code that is kept open so it will fairly easily compile on any *nix/posix platform without too much drama. And I think that's a pretty universal understanding for *nix style code.)
>
> So, it seems you are tilting at windmills, complaining about Windows only.
>
> Yes, the fundamentals of Windows are *VERY* different than any Linux/Unix/Solaris etc based platform. As such, making it work across all those platforms is really quite a lot of work.
> (Making it work fine, even on the future supported platforms (*nix) isn't trivial - obviously adding Windows to the mix is far, far more!)
>
> And, it seems like no-one has stepped up to commit the $$$ needed to keep that support going.
> Even a cheap dev probably charges $100+ an hour. How many hours/dollars do you think, in aggregate, is committed to keeping Windows support? It's not going to be like buying a $3 app for your phone - since the market for Windows users is far smaller.
>
> And, I suspect, if we reach the end of the road for Windows support, and there's a half million users out there that want BIND supported on Windows, and they'll all pledge a buck a year, than I'd expect that Windows support will roll right out.
>
> But if instead there's 100 people willing to pledge even $100 a year, well I'd guess that's not likely to pay for it.
>
> ISC manages to pay the people who write code and do support through support contracts. Do you have one of those?
>
> So the last option is;
> You, or someone else to simply give away their time for free.
> You up for that?
> If you're not, or you don't have that skill set, then complaining bitterly seems a little hypocritical.
>
> ISC already releases a huge set of software that you almost certainly use every single day (DHCP server and clients, along with BIND) and they aren't charging you a dime for that use. They're not charging your ISP either, or a ton of other people. So, IMO, they've really done a ton of free work for the community already.
>
> But it seems like you think it's not enough.
>
> Sigh.
> What. Can. I. Say.
> ISC does a lot of really good work.
> IMO, this kind of a complaint is really misplaced.
>
> And to be clear, I won't engage in a bunch of back-and-forth arguing this position. You're welcome to agree or not.
> But *I* think you're obviously wrong, and I want everyone at ISC who does all that good work, developing great software that they let us use for free that I really appreciate their work.
>
> -Greg
>
>
>
> PC> What I find ironic is that here:
>
> PC> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md <https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md>
>
> PC> the very first line says:
>
> PC> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
> PC> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."
>
> PC> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
> PC> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
> PC> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
> PC> platform.
>
> PC> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
> PC> it's objectives are?
>
> PC> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
> PC> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
> PC> one.
>
> PC> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
> PC> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
> PC> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
> PC> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?
>
> PC> Regards,
> PC> Peter Coghlan.
>
>
> >> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
> >> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
> >> note in the footer:
>
> >> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
> >> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ <https://www.isc.org/contact/> for more information.
>
> >> --
> >> Ondřej SurÃœ — ISC (He/Him)
>
> >> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
>
> >>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org <mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>> wrote:
>
> >>> 
> >>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>
> >>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
> >>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
> >>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
> >>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
> >>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>
> >>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>
> >>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>
> >>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>
> >>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>
> >>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>
>
>
> >>> _______________________________________________
> >>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users <https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users> to unsubscribe from this list
>
> >>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ <https://www.isc.org/contact/> for more information.
>
>
> >>> bind-users mailing list
> >>> bind-***@lists.isc.org <mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>
> >>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users <https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users>
> PC> _______________________________________________
> PC> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users <https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users> to unsubscribe from this list
>
> PC> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
> PC> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ <https://www.isc.org/contact/> for more information.
>
>
> PC> bind-users mailing list
> PC> bind-***@lists.isc.org <mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>
> PC> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users <https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> bind-***@lists.isc.org
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

[Ondřej Surý]

What I’ve heard is that the geoip/maxmindb is the deal breaker,
but on general level, I concur that MS-DNS is a good choice for
Windows Server deployments.

I am a big fan of picking the right tool for the job.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
***@isc.org

> On 4. 6. 2021, at 23:31, Eric Germann via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>
> Call me naive, but I’m trying to figure out what the corner case is to use BIND on Windows.
>
> For an internal network Windows Server already has a name server that integrates with AD and everything else needed to run a Windows network. Support for DDNS is a lot easier, it has tons of SRV records needed for service location, etc. It seems it would be a lot easier to use that for a Windows network than shoehorn everything in to BIND.
>
> ---
> Eric Germann
> ekgermann {at} semperen {dot} com || ekgermann {at} gmail {dot} com
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericgermann
> Twitter: @ekgermann
> Telegram || Signal || Phone +1 {dash} 419 {dash } 513 {dash} 0712
>
> GPG Fingerprint: 89ED 36B3 515A 211B 6390 60A9 E30D 9B9B 3EBF F1A1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 4, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Gregory Sloop <***@sloop.net> wrote:
>>
>> This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.
>>
>> So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.
>>
>> So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
>> And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.
>>
>> I'd consider that highly portable.
>>
>> You're welcome to disagree, but then someone else will complain it's not available in Amiga, Atari and under Dos and complain it isn't "portable" because there's no dos version.
>>
>> So how many platforms do you have to support, to call it portable?
>> (I've always thought of "portable" code, in this context especially, as code that is kept open so it will fairly easily compile on any *nix/posix platform without too much drama. And I think that's a pretty universal understanding for *nix style code.)
>>
>> So, it seems you are tilting at windmills, complaining about Windows only.
>>
>> Yes, the fundamentals of Windows are *VERY* different than any Linux/Unix/Solaris etc based platform. As such, making it work across all those platforms is really quite a lot of work.
>> (Making it work fine, even on the future supported platforms (*nix) isn't trivial - obviously adding Windows to the mix is far, far more!)
>>
>> And, it seems like no-one has stepped up to commit the $$$ needed to keep that support going.
>> Even a cheap dev probably charges $100+ an hour. How many hours/dollars do you think, in aggregate, is committed to keeping Windows support? It's not going to be like buying a $3 app for your phone - since the market for Windows users is far smaller.
>>
>> And, I suspect, if we reach the end of the road for Windows support, and there's a half million users out there that want BIND supported on Windows, and they'll all pledge a buck a year, than I'd expect that Windows support will roll right out.
>>
>> But if instead there's 100 people willing to pledge even $100 a year, well I'd guess that's not likely to pay for it.
>>
>> ISC manages to pay the people who write code and do support through support contracts. Do you have one of those?
>>
>> So the last option is;
>> You, or someone else to simply give away their time for free.
>> You up for that?
>> If you're not, or you don't have that skill set, then complaining bitterly seems a little hypocritical.
>>
>> ISC already releases a huge set of software that you almost certainly use every single day (DHCP server and clients, along with BIND) and they aren't charging you a dime for that use. They're not charging your ISP either, or a ton of other people. So, IMO, they've really done a ton of free work for the community already.
>>
>> But it seems like you think it's not enough.
>>
>> Sigh.
>> What. Can. I. Say.
>> ISC does a lot of really good work.
>> IMO, this kind of a complaint is really misplaced.
>>
>> And to be clear, I won't engage in a bunch of back-and-forth arguing this position. You're welcome to agree or not.
>> But *I* think you're obviously wrong, and I want everyone at ISC who does all that good work, developing great software that they let us use for free that I really appreciate their work.
>>
>> -Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> PC> What I find ironic is that here:
>>
>> PC> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md
>>
>> PC> the very first line says:
>>
>> PC> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
>> PC> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."
>>
>> PC> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
>> PC> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
>> PC> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
>> PC> platform.
>>
>> PC> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
>> PC> it's objectives are?
>>
>> PC> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
>> PC> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
>> PC> one.
>>
>> PC> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
>> PC> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
>> PC> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
>> PC> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?
>>
>> PC> Regards,
>> PC> Peter Coghlan.
>>
>>
>> >> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
>> >> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
>> >> note in the footer:
>>
>> >> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
>> >> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
>>
>> >> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
>>
>> >>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>>
>> >>> 
>> >>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>> >>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>> >>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>> >>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>> >>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>>
>> >>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>>
>> >>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>>
>> >>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>>
>> >>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>>
>> >>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> >>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> >>> bind-users mailing list
>> >>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> >>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>> PC> _______________________________________________
>> PC> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> PC> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
>> PC> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> PC> bind-users mailing list
>> PC> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> PC> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> bind-users mailing list
>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> bind-***@lists.isc.org
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


bind-users mailing list
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[alcol alcol]

REALLY, it is



________________________________
From: bind-users <bind-users-***@lists.isc.org> on behalf of Ondřej SurÃœ <***@isc.org>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 11:39 PM
To: Eric Germann <***@semperen.com>
Cc: bind-***@lists.isc.org <bind-***@lists.isc.org>
Subject: Re: No more support for windows

What I’ve heard is that the geoip/maxmindb is the deal breaker,
but on general level, I concur that MS-DNS is a good choice for
Windows Server deployments.

I am a big fan of picking the right tool for the job.

Ondrej
--
Ondřej SurÃœ (He/Him)
***@isc.org

> On 4. 6. 2021, at 23:31, Eric Germann via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>
> Call me naive, but I’m trying to figure out what the corner case is to use BIND on Windows.
>
> For an internal network Windows Server already has a name server that integrates with AD and everything else needed to run a Windows network. Support for DDNS is a lot easier, it has tons of SRV records needed for service location, etc. It seems it would be a lot easier to use that for a Windows network than shoehorn everything in to BIND.
>
> ---
> Eric Germann
> ekgermann {at} semperen {dot} com || ekgermann {at} gmail {dot} com
> LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericgermann
> Twitter: @ekgermann
> Telegram || Signal || Phone +1 {dash} 419 {dash } 513 {dash} 0712
>
> GPG Fingerprint: 89ED 36B3 515A 211B 6390 60A9 E30D 9B9B 3EBF F1A1
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>> On Jun 4, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Gregory Sloop <***@sloop.net> wrote:
>>
>> This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.
>>
>> So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.
>>
>> So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
>> And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.
>>
>> I'd consider that highly portable.
>>
>> You're welcome to disagree, but then someone else will complain it's not available in Amiga, Atari and under Dos and complain it isn't "portable" because there's no dos version.
>>
>> So how many platforms do you have to support, to call it portable?
>> (I've always thought of "portable" code, in this context especially, as code that is kept open so it will fairly easily compile on any *nix/posix platform without too much drama. And I think that's a pretty universal understanding for *nix style code.)
>>
>> So, it seems you are tilting at windmills, complaining about Windows only.
>>
>> Yes, the fundamentals of Windows are *VERY* different than any Linux/Unix/Solaris etc based platform. As such, making it work across all those platforms is really quite a lot of work.
>> (Making it work fine, even on the future supported platforms (*nix) isn't trivial - obviously adding Windows to the mix is far, far more!)
>>
>> And, it seems like no-one has stepped up to commit the $$$ needed to keep that support going.
>> Even a cheap dev probably charges $100+ an hour. How many hours/dollars do you think, in aggregate, is committed to keeping Windows support? It's not going to be like buying a $3 app for your phone - since the market for Windows users is far smaller.
>>
>> And, I suspect, if we reach the end of the road for Windows support, and there's a half million users out there that want BIND supported on Windows, and they'll all pledge a buck a year, than I'd expect that Windows support will roll right out.
>>
>> But if instead there's 100 people willing to pledge even $100 a year, well I'd guess that's not likely to pay for it.
>>
>> ISC manages to pay the people who write code and do support through support contracts. Do you have one of those?
>>
>> So the last option is;
>> You, or someone else to simply give away their time for free.
>> You up for that?
>> If you're not, or you don't have that skill set, then complaining bitterly seems a little hypocritical.
>>
>> ISC already releases a huge set of software that you almost certainly use every single day (DHCP server and clients, along with BIND) and they aren't charging you a dime for that use. They're not charging your ISP either, or a ton of other people. So, IMO, they've really done a ton of free work for the community already.
>>
>> But it seems like you think it's not enough.
>>
>> Sigh.
>> What. Can. I. Say.
>> ISC does a lot of really good work.
>> IMO, this kind of a complaint is really misplaced.
>>
>> And to be clear, I won't engage in a bunch of back-and-forth arguing this position. You're welcome to agree or not.
>> But *I* think you're obviously wrong, and I want everyone at ISC who does all that good work, developing great software that they let us use for free that I really appreciate their work.
>>
>> -Greg
>>
>>
>>
>> PC> What I find ironic is that here:
>>
>> PC> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md
>>
>> PC> the very first line says:
>>
>> PC> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
>> PC> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."
>>
>> PC> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
>> PC> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
>> PC> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
>> PC> platform.
>>
>> PC> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
>> PC> it's objectives are?
>>
>> PC> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
>> PC> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
>> PC> one.
>>
>> PC> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
>> PC> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
>> PC> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
>> PC> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?
>>
>> PC> Regards,
>> PC> Peter Coghlan.
>>
>>
>> >> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
>> >> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
>> >> note in the footer:
>>
>> >> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
>> >> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>> >> --
>> >> Ondřej SurÃœ — ISC (He/Him)
>>
>> >> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
>>
>> >>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>>
>> >>> 
>> >>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>>
>> >>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>> >>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>> >>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>> >>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>> >>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>>
>> >>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>>
>> >>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>>
>> >>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>>
>> >>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>>
>> >>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>>
>>
>>
>> >>> _______________________________________________
>> >>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> >>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> >>> bind-users mailing list
>> >>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> >>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>> PC> _______________________________________________
>> PC> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> PC> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
>> PC> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> PC> bind-users mailing list
>> PC> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> PC> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>> _______________________________________________
>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>>
>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>
>>
>> bind-users mailing list
>> bind-***@lists.isc.org
>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users
>
> _______________________________________________
> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
>
> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>
>
> bind-users mailing list
> bind-***@lists.isc.org
> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


bind-users mailing list
bind-***@lists.isc.org
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

[alcol alcol]

Really is not as u say
first of all you have to take in mind DMZ and other complex config

As last (as I used it) , I used Linux DIST for Authorative and internet facing resolver with TLD and as resolver
and two internal windows with BIND on Windows Server and WINS

If you use Active Directory , is used to know is in use MS DNS (so trash).
If you don't use Active Directory or you are inside a DMZ and a complex enviroment, can be allowed to havi WINS too a Windows Server with BIND AND NOT ACTIVE DIRECTORY (an ldap redesigned).


Best Regards
Alberto Colosi
ICT Security

________________________________
From: bind-users <bind-users-***@lists.isc.org> on behalf of Eric Germann via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org>
Sent: Friday, June 4, 2021 11:31 PM
To: Greg Sloop <***@sloop.net>
Cc: bind-***@lists.isc.org <bind-***@lists.isc.org>
Subject: Re: No more support for windows

Call me naive, but I’m trying to figure out what the corner case is to use BIND on Windows.

For an internal network Windows Server already has a name server that integrates with AD and everything else needed to run a Windows network. Support for DDNS is a lot easier, it has tons of SRV records needed for service location, etc. It seems it would be a lot easier to use that for a Windows network than shoehorn everything in to BIND.

---
Eric Germann
ekgermann {at} semperen {dot} com || ekgermann {at} gmail {dot} com
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/ericgermann
Twitter: @ekgermann
Telegram || Signal || Phone +1 {dash} 419 {dash } 513 {dash} 0712

GPG Fingerprint: 89ED 36B3 515A 211B 6390 60A9 E30D 9B9B 3EBF F1A1







On Jun 4, 2021, at 4:58 PM, Gregory Sloop <***@sloop.net<mailto:***@sloop.net>> wrote:

This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.

So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.

So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.

I'd consider that highly portable.

You're welcome to disagree, but then someone else will complain it's not available in Amiga, Atari and under Dos and complain it isn't "portable" because there's no dos version.

So how many platforms do you have to support, to call it portable?
(I've always thought of "portable" code, in this context especially, as code that is kept open so it will fairly easily compile on any *nix/posix platform without too much drama. And I think that's a pretty universal understanding for *nix style code.)

So, it seems you are tilting at windmills, complaining about Windows only.

Yes, the fundamentals of Windows are *VERY* different than any Linux/Unix/Solaris etc based platform. As such, making it work across all those platforms is really quite a lot of work.
(Making it work fine, even on the future supported platforms (*nix) isn't trivial - obviously adding Windows to the mix is far, far more!)

And, it seems like no-one has stepped up to commit the $$$ needed to keep that support going.
Even a cheap dev probably charges $100+ an hour. How many hours/dollars do you think, in aggregate, is committed to keeping Windows support? It's not going to be like buying a $3 app for your phone - since the market for Windows users is far smaller.

And, I suspect, if we reach the end of the road for Windows support, and there's a half million users out there that want BIND supported on Windows, and they'll all pledge a buck a year, than I'd expect that Windows support will roll right out.

But if instead there's 100 people willing to pledge even $100 a year, well I'd guess that's not likely to pay for it.

ISC manages to pay the people who write code and do support through support contracts. Do you have one of those?

So the last option is;
You, or someone else to simply give away their time for free.
You up for that?
If you're not, or you don't have that skill set, then complaining bitterly seems a little hypocritical.

ISC already releases a huge set of software that you almost certainly use every single day (DHCP server and clients, along with BIND) and they aren't charging you a dime for that use. They're not charging your ISP either, or a ton of other people. So, IMO, they've really done a ton of free work for the community already.

But it seems like you think it's not enough.

Sigh.
What. Can. I. Say.
ISC does a lot of really good work.
IMO, this kind of a complaint is really misplaced.

And to be clear, I won't engage in a bunch of back-and-forth arguing this position. You're welcome to agree or not.
But *I* think you're obviously wrong, and I want everyone at ISC who does all that good work, developing great software that they let us use for free that I really appreciate their work.

-Greg



PC> What I find ironic is that here:

PC> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md<https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md>

PC> the very first line says:

PC> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
PC> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."

PC> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
PC> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
PC> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
PC> platform.

PC> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
PC> it's objectives are?

PC> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
PC> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
PC> one.

PC> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
PC> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
PC> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
PC> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?

PC> Regards,
PC> Peter Coghlan.


>> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
>> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
>> note in the footer:

>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
>> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.

>> --
>> Ondřej SurÃœ — ISC (He/Him)

>> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.

>>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org<mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>> wrote:

>>> 
>>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:

>>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org<http://isc.org> site about this just how many people
>>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.

>>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.

>>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?

>>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".

>>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.

>>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org<http://isc.org>)



>>> _______________________________________________
>>> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

>>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


>>> bind-users mailing list
>>> bind-***@lists.isc.org<mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>
>>> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users<https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users>
PC> _______________________________________________
PC> Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

PC> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
PC> subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


PC> bind-users mailing list
PC> bind-***@lists.isc.org<mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>
PC> https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users<https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users>
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list

ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.


bind-users mailing list
bind-***@lists.isc.org<mailto:bind-***@lists.isc.org>
https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users

[Paul Kosinski via bind-users]

On Fri, 4 Jun 2021 13:58:40 -0700
Gregory Sloop <***@sloop.net> wrote:

> This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.
>
> So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.
>
> So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
> And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.
>
> I'd consider that highly portable.


I'd consider it moderately portable.

Among Open Source software, I'd consider the following highly portable: Firefox, Chromium, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, Claws-Mail, Scribus, Inkscape, Gimp, Krita, VLC, QT(!) and who knows how many others that run on Unix-like systems *and* on Windows.

And among closed source software, Chrome is obviously highly portable (by Google), and Acrobat Reader and Flash (RIP) are highly portable (by Adobe).

P.S. I am not a fan of Windows, but it is widespread, and many people even use it for Internet servers.
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[Ondřej Surý]

Folks, I would appreciate if we can say on the topic. Specifically, I consider this rhetorical discussion on the meaning of the word “portable” neither useful to the subscribers of this list nor productive.

Thanks,
--
Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)

My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.

> On 5. 6. 2021, at 18:38, Paul Kosinski via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>
> On Fri, 4 Jun 2021 13:58:40 -0700
> Gregory Sloop <***@sloop.net> wrote:
>
>> This feels a lot like responding to trolls, but I'll instead assume that you're asking (or making a point) in good faith.
>>
>> So, we'll stipulate that - you're actually interested in truth and knowledge.
>>
>> So, it's easily compiled on Mac, Unix, FreeBSD, Linux, SunOS, RaspPi, etc.
>> And it compiles on a huge range of hardware, CPU's etc.
>>
>> I'd consider that highly portable.
>
>
> I'd consider it moderately portable.
>
> Among Open Source software, I'd consider the following highly portable: Firefox, Chromium, LibreOffice, Thunderbird, Claws-Mail, Scribus, Inkscape, Gimp, Krita, VLC, QT(!) and who knows how many others that run on Unix-like systems *and* on Windows.
>
> And among closed source software, Chrome is obviously highly portable (by Google), and Acrobat Reader and Flash (RIP) are highly portable (by Adobe).
>
> P.S. I am not a fan of Windows, but it is widespread, and many people even use it for Internet servers.
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[Reindl Harald]

Am 05.06.21 um 19:15 schrieb Ondřej Surý:
> Folks, I would appreciate if we can say on the topic. Specifically, I consider this rhetorical discussion on the meaning of the word “portable” neither useful to the subscribers of this list nor productive.

besides that - i didn't hear a serious reasoning for a native named
binary on windows these days and given there are tons of ways running a
linux binary compared to 20 years ago i call it a waste of time

* it eats time better invested
* it makes code more complex
* more complex code implies more errors


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[Brett Delmage]

On Sat, 5 Jun 2021, Reindl Harald wrote:

> besides that - i didn't hear a serious reasoning for a native named
> binary on windows these days and given there are tons of ways running a
> linux binary compared to 20 years ago i call it a waste of time
>
> * more complex code implies more errors

some errors being security-related, which in the case of BIND servers
used by MANY users is a very bad situation.

Furthermore, are there even any 'important' Windows primary servers, that
serve the open internet or many users (authoritative or resolving) - but
rather only serve closed/internal private or commercial interests?

If some entity is already wasting money on MS software and licenses and
BIND is important to them, then they should also support development and
pay for support just like they pay MS.

I do believe ISC should be more clear about the intended platforms for
BIND. It's not a crime to not support one corporation's specific
and different platform.

Brett
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[Peter Coghlan]

> Peter,
>
>
> do you seriously think that this word play is going to help the BIND 9
> support for Windows? So, I am asking you, what’s your serious
> proposal what should we do?
>

You may regard it as a word play but I am being very serious indeed.

I have looked high up and low down for a definition of what BIND is
and what it does and the most specific and succinct one I could find is
the one which I quoted. If it was a true definintion of BIND, I would
be very pleased because I would have found exactly what I was looking
for.

My serious proposal on what you should do now is that you should come
up with a proper description/definition of BIND which considers carefully
whether it should be described as "highly portable" or whether it it
would be more accurately described as closely wedded to the Unix world
and likely to become increasingly difficult to use anywhere outside this
world as time goes forward.

How can people know whether they want to contribute to something if
there is no clear and accurate definition of what it the something is
or if at best the definition means different things to different people?
Is it not in everybody's interest that we all know exactly what we
are talking about?

(For the record, I personally have no interest in BIND 9 support
specifically for Windows.)

>
> I’ve had asked if people are willing to invest time, effort or money
> into keeping the Windows support alive. I would rather accept an
> external contributor with a commitment rather than just a fat cheque,
> because Windows support isn’t really something we are putting our
> heart in.
>

My point is that if BIND is "highly portable", a contributor's heart
would be in making it making it work on a wide variety of platforms,
not on making it work a specific platform that they have a particular
interest in.

>
> The ISC is working on improving BIND 9 day and night (in fact, it’s
> almost 11pm here), and we are spread thin, and we have to prioritise.
> And if I had to answer the question whether I and my team should
> spend time improving BIND 9 just for everybody or invest the precious
> time into fixing yet another incompatibility between POSIX/SUSv2 and
> Windows world, I think the answer would be always: Let’s improve
> things for majority of our users. It’s just simple as that.
>

If this is the way you want to go, why not declare that that BIND is
for Unix-like systems and systems that can emulate this environment only
and have people who want this get behind it? Why the pretence that it is
"highly portable" and that it could be used satisfactorily in a very
different environment such as Windows without generating difficulty and
conflict? Then I can be on my way as there is nothing further to interest
me here.

I'm sorry that this probably does not seem helpful to the people who would
rather the BIND 9 for Windows situation to continue as it has been but at
least it may be clearer to them as to why they are in the situation they
are in.

Regards,
Peter Coghlan

>
> Ondrej
> --
> Ondřej Surý (He/Him)
> ***@isc.org
>
>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 20:37, Peter Coghlan <***@beyondthepale.ie> wrote:
>>
>> What I find ironic is that here:
>>
>> https://gitlab.isc.org/isc-projects/bind9/-/blob/main/README.md
>>
>> the very first line says:
>>
>> "BIND (Berkeley Internet Name Domain) is a complete, highly portable
>> implementation of the Domain Name System (DNS) protocol."
>>
>> If this were truly the case, BIND would work on Windows (or any other
>> platform that doesn't have a "u" in it's name) with minimal effort
>> and would not require specific funding to adapt it to any particular
>> platform.
>>
>> Can we please have a realistic definition of what BIND is and what
>> it's objectives are?
>>
>> I for one would be more likely to contribute to the development of
>> a non-platform-specific, portable BIND than a single-platform-specific
>> one.
>>
>> On the other hand, if it has already been decided that BIND can only
>> realistically be implemented in the *u* arena and will rely on
>> facilities only available in this arena, then shouldn't this be stated
>> clearly instead of also declaring that it is highly portable?
>>
>> Regards,
>> Peter Coghlan.
>>
>>>
>>> Do you understand how ironic is for you to complain about “subscription is
>>> not going to happen” while **every** email on the mailing list has this
>>> note in the footer:
>>>
>>> ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions.
>>> Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
>>>
>>> --
>>> Ondřej Surý — ISC (He/Him)
>>>
>>> My working hours and your working hours may be different. Please do not feel obligated to reply outside your normal working hours.
>>>
>>>> On 4. 6. 2021, at 19:47, Peter via bind-users <bind-***@lists.isc.org> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> 
>>>> On 04/06/2021 6:05 pm, John Thurston wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> On 6/4/2021 8:48 AM, Peter via bind-users wrote:
>>>>>> When people find out2024 is the year bind is no longer supported for
>>>>>> windows people aregoing to be upset this all seems to be done quietly
>>>>>> nothing posted on the the isc.org site about this just how many people
>>>>>> depend on bind for windows will be shocking.
>>>>>
>>>>> And griping about the decision on the mailing list is annoying.
>>>>>
>>>>> If you want to alter the decision, bring something new to the discussion. Funding to pay for the windows development team? Logistical support for the project?
>>>>>
>>>>> Anything constructive will be better received than repeating "I don't like your decision".
>>>>>
>>>> Yes John Thurston I said about a subscription here which I guess will not happen if they made up thier mind its likly no going to happen.
>>>>
>>>> Deprecating BIND 9.18+ on Windows (or making it community improved and supported (isc.org)
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
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