Discussion:
Configuring the location of named .jnl files
Ivan Avery Frey
2021-04-25 23:38:56 UTC
Permalink
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.

I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
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Mark Andrews
2021-04-26 00:49:10 UTC
Permalink
zone example {
…;
journal <quoted_string>;
};
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
_______________________________________________
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Mark Andrews, ISC
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Petr Menšík
2021-04-26 09:37:27 UTC
Permalink
Hi Ivan,

Visit [1] and search "journal" zone option. Similar as "file". At least
BIND 9.16 has support, it is also in man named.conf manual page in BIND
9.11. I think that is what you were looking for.

Regards,
Petr

1.
https://bind9.readthedocs.io/en/v9_16_13/reference.html#zone-statement-grammar
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
--
Petr Menšík
Software Engineer
Red Hat, http://www.redhat.com/
email: ***@redhat.com
PGP: DFCF908DB7C87E8E529925BC4931CA5B6C9FC5CB
Kevin Darcy via bind-users
2021-04-26 13:56:29 UTC
Permalink
[ Classification Level: GENERAL BUSINESS ]

Ivan,
I've never done the Let's Encrypt thing myself, but from my skim
of the documentation, it appears they want you to place a TXT record in a
specific part of your domain's namespace hierarchy.

I sincerely hope you're not trying to write the TXT record directly to the
journal file. That could lead to corruption, or, at the very least, your
changes could be overwritten, since journal files are written dynamically.

The safe way to update DNS programmatically is through the Dynamic Update
extension to DNS, typically via the "nsupdate" command-line utility, or via
various libraries/modules of scripting languages like Perl or Python.

One of the bash-based ACME client implementations linked from Let's
Encrypt's webpage, for instance, is github.com/bruncsak/ght-acme.sh, and
for the DNS-01 challenge method, it feeds some commands to nsupdate. The
code is rather crude, assuming no crypto-based authentication on the server
side, among other things, but it's at least a start on a recommended way to
update DNS data. Better than mucking around with journal files.

There is a learning curve associated with Dynamic Update. On the server
side, for instance, you'll need to establish permissions via allow-update.
Limiting updates to localhost at least would protect your DNS data from
unauthorized changes from remote hosts, but ideally, you'd generate a key
and use that.


- Kevin
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
unsubscribe from this list
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subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
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Ivan Avery Frey
2021-04-26 17:26:50 UTC
Permalink
Yes, I was using nsupdate to test my implementation. For security reasons
the directory that holds the zone file is readonly for named. So named
couldn't create its journal file there. I misinterpreted the reference
manual for the description of the "journal" command. Where it mentioned
that the "filename" could be overridden I wasn't thinking it could be a
pathname.

Just to clarify, I will be using the certbot client with the dns-rfc2136
plugin to receive my certificates.

I wonder why they don't have a dns-local plugin. It would be a whole lot
simpler.

On Mon., Apr. 26, 2021, 09:57 Kevin Darcy via bind-users, <
Post by Kevin Darcy via bind-users
[ Classification Level: GENERAL BUSINESS ]
Ivan,
I've never done the Let's Encrypt thing myself, but from my
skim of the documentation, it appears they want you to place a TXT record
in a specific part of your domain's namespace hierarchy.
I sincerely hope you're not trying to write the TXT record directly to the
journal file. That could lead to corruption, or, at the very least, your
changes could be overwritten, since journal files are written dynamically.
The safe way to update DNS programmatically is through the Dynamic Update
extension to DNS, typically via the "nsupdate" command-line utility, or via
various libraries/modules of scripting languages like Perl or Python.
One of the bash-based ACME client implementations linked from Let's
Encrypt's webpage, for instance, is github.com/bruncsak/ght-acme.sh, and
for the DNS-01 challenge method, it feeds some commands to nsupdate. The
code is rather crude, assuming no crypto-based authentication on the server
side, among other things, but it's at least a start on a recommended way to
update DNS data. Better than mucking around with journal files.
There is a learning curve associated with Dynamic Update. On the server
side, for instance, you'll need to establish permissions via allow-update.
Limiting updates to localhost at least would protect your DNS data from
unauthorized changes from remote hosts, but ideally, you'd generate a key
and use that.
- Kevin
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
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ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
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Mark Andrews
2021-04-26 23:53:09 UTC
Permalink
Well if you are not allowed to update the zone file for “security reasons” then
allowing a journal to be written shouldn’t be allowed for the same “security reasons”.
There is no difference between updating a zone file and updating a journal from a
security perspective.

Additionally you will just be adding more and more processing to the startup of named
if you have a un-writeable zone file as every change to the zone through the life of
the zone will have to be applied serially. You will also have problems if you have
to roll the zones serial number as journals really aren’t designed to be used with
a zone file that is not being consolidated regularly. Journals are not designed to
have serial numbers loop over. Which instance of serial 5 are you referring too if
there are multiple 5s in the journal.

I suggest that you go back as re-examine your security policy. Even SELinux moves
dynamically updatable zones to a writable directory so that the zone files can be
updated.

Mark
Yes, I was using nsupdate to test my implementation. For security reasons the directory that holds the zone file is readonly for named. So named couldn't create its journal file there. I misinterpreted the reference manual for the description of the "journal" command. Where it mentioned that the "filename" could be overridden I wasn't thinking it could be a pathname.
Just to clarify, I will be using the certbot client with the dns-rfc2136 plugin to receive my certificates.
I wonder why they don't have a dns-local plugin. It would be a whole lot simpler.
[ Classification Level: GENERAL BUSINESS ]
Ivan,
I've never done the Let's Encrypt thing myself, but from my skim of the documentation, it appears they want you to place a TXT record in a specific part of your domain's namespace hierarchy.
I sincerely hope you're not trying to write the TXT record directly to the journal file. That could lead to corruption, or, at the very least, your changes could be overwritten, since journal files are written dynamically.
The safe way to update DNS programmatically is through the Dynamic Update extension to DNS, typically via the "nsupdate" command-line utility, or via various libraries/modules of scripting languages like Perl or Python.
One of the bash-based ACME client implementations linked from Let's Encrypt's webpage, for instance, is github.com/bruncsak/ght-acme.sh, and for the DNS-01 challenge method, it feeds some commands to nsupdate. The code is rather crude, assuming no crypto-based authentication on the server side, among other things, but it's at least a start on a recommended way to update DNS data. Better than mucking around with journal files.
There is a learning curve associated with Dynamic Update. On the server side, for instance, you'll need to establish permissions via allow-update. Limiting updates to localhost at least would protect your DNS data from unauthorized changes from remote hosts, but ideally, you'd generate a key and use that.
- Kevin
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
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Mark Andrews, ISC
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PHONE: +61 2 9871 4742 INTERNET: ***@isc.org

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Ivan Avery Frey
2021-04-27 00:13:02 UTC
Permalink
Hi Mark,

We are only using update to provision the acme challenge as described
by RFC 8555 8.4. Nothing else.

If certbot (the acme client) behaves as it should provisioning and
deprovisioning the resource record, then our zone file doesn't really
change.

I will ask my colleague why he feels our security policy is the right one.
Ivan.
Post by Mark Andrews
Well if you are not allowed to update the zone file for “security reasons” then
allowing a journal to be written shouldn’t be allowed for the same “security reasons”.
There is no difference between updating a zone file and updating a journal from a
security perspective.
Additionally you will just be adding more and more processing to the startup of named
if you have a un-writeable zone file as every change to the zone through the life of
the zone will have to be applied serially. You will also have problems if you have
to roll the zones serial number as journals really aren’t designed to be used with
a zone file that is not being consolidated regularly. Journals are not designed to
have serial numbers loop over. Which instance of serial 5 are you referring too if
there are multiple 5s in the journal.
I suggest that you go back as re-examine your security policy. Even SELinux moves
dynamically updatable zones to a writable directory so that the zone files can be
updated.
Mark
Yes, I was using nsupdate to test my implementation. For security reasons the directory that holds the zone file is readonly for named. So named couldn't create its journal file there. I misinterpreted the reference manual for the description of the "journal" command. Where it mentioned that the "filename" could be overridden I wasn't thinking it could be a pathname.
Just to clarify, I will be using the certbot client with the dns-rfc2136 plugin to receive my certificates.
I wonder why they don't have a dns-local plugin. It would be a whole lot simpler.
[ Classification Level: GENERAL BUSINESS ]
Ivan,
I've never done the Let's Encrypt thing myself, but from my skim of the documentation, it appears they want you to place a TXT record in a specific part of your domain's namespace hierarchy.
I sincerely hope you're not trying to write the TXT record directly to the journal file. That could lead to corruption, or, at the very least, your changes could be overwritten, since journal files are written dynamically.
The safe way to update DNS programmatically is through the Dynamic Update extension to DNS, typically via the "nsupdate" command-line utility, or via various libraries/modules of scripting languages like Perl or Python.
One of the bash-based ACME client implementations linked from Let's Encrypt's webpage, for instance, is github.com/bruncsak/ght-acme.sh, and for the DNS-01 challenge method, it feeds some commands to nsupdate. The code is rather crude, assuming no crypto-based authentication on the server side, among other things, but it's at least a start on a recommended way to update DNS data. Better than mucking around with journal files.
There is a learning curve associated with Dynamic Update. On the server side, for instance, you'll need to establish permissions via allow-update. Limiting updates to localhost at least would protect your DNS data from unauthorized changes from remote hosts, but ideally, you'd generate a key and use that.
- Kevin
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to unsubscribe from this list
ISC funds the development of this software with paid support subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more information.
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Mark Andrews, ISC
1 Seymour St., Dundas Valley, NSW 2117, Australia
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Anders Löwinger
2021-04-27 06:26:39 UTC
Permalink
------ Originalmeddelande ------
Från: "Ivan Avery Frey" <***@gmail.com>
Till: "ML BIND Users" <bind-***@lists.isc.org>
Skickat: 2021-04-27 02:13:02
Ämne: Re: Configuring the location of named .jnl files
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
Hi Mark,
We are only using update to provision the acme challenge as described
by RFC 8555 8.4. Nothing else.
Acme follows CNAMEs. I've redirected all challenges to my domains to a
separate subdomain, which allows dynamic updates. Works great!

Regards
Anders Löwinger

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Tony Finch
2021-04-27 15:44:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Anders Löwinger
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
We are only using update to provision the acme challenge as described
by RFC 8555 8.4. Nothing else.
Acme follows CNAMEs. I've redirected all challenges to my domains to a
separate subdomain, which allows dynamic updates. Works great!
Yes, there's an item about this on the EFF blog:
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2018/02/technical-deep-dive-securing-automation-acme-dns-challenge-validation

I wrote a followup which might be of interest on this list even though it
isn't relevant to this specific problem:
https://fanf.dreamwidth.org/123294.html

Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch <***@dotat.at> https://dotat.at/
fight poverty, oppression, hunger, ignorance, disease, and aggression
Cameron Banowsky
2021-04-26 15:12:48 UTC
Permalink
To echo what Kevin has said.

A TXT record is what is needed in the ZONE file. Furthermore with
Letsencrypt or any other CA you need to add a CAA record otherwise you run
the risk of returning a SERVFAIL with whatever client goes to validate that
record.


https://letsencrypt.org/docs/caa/



This record should go in the same zone file as your TXT record.


Hope that helps.


Cameron
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1. Re: Configuring the location of named .jnl files (Kevin Darcy)
2. Re: Using RNDC to control remote access to my BIND server
(Greg Donohoe)
3. Re: Using RNDC to control remote access to my BIND server
(Anand Buddhdev)
4. How to interpret BIND 9 JSON Counters (Dom Brown)
----------------------------------------------------------------------
Message: 1
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 09:56:29 -0400
Subject: Re: Configuring the location of named .jnl files
<CAAeHe+x2qk1W9L3WYTzLRW=
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
[ Classification Level: GENERAL BUSINESS ]
Ivan,
I've never done the Let's Encrypt thing myself, but from my skim
of the documentation, it appears they want you to place a TXT record in a
specific part of your domain's namespace hierarchy.
I sincerely hope you're not trying to write the TXT record directly to the
journal file. That could lead to corruption, or, at the very least, your
changes could be overwritten, since journal files are written dynamically.
The safe way to update DNS programmatically is through the Dynamic Update
extension to DNS, typically via the "nsupdate" command-line utility, or via
various libraries/modules of scripting languages like Perl or Python.
One of the bash-based ACME client implementations linked from Let's
Encrypt's webpage, for instance, is github.com/bruncsak/ght-acme.sh, and
for the DNS-01 challenge method, it feeds some commands to nsupdate. The
code is rather crude, assuming no crypto-based authentication on the server
side, among other things, but it's at least a start on a recommended way to
update DNS data. Better than mucking around with journal files.
There is a learning curve associated with Dynamic Update. On the server
side, for instance, you'll need to establish permissions via allow-update.
Limiting updates to localhost at least would protect your DNS data from
unauthorized changes from remote hosts, but ideally, you'd generate a key
and use that.
- Kevin
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
_______________________________________________
Please visit https://lists.isc.org/mailman/listinfo/bind-users to
unsubscribe from this list
ISC funds the development of this software with paid support
subscriptions. Contact us at https://www.isc.org/contact/ for more
information.
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Message: 2
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 15:04:27 +0100
Subject: Re: Using RNDC to control remote access to my BIND server
<
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"
Thanks Anand.
When using this TSIG solution is the key visible (clear) within the DNS
packet being sent to the remote server or is it encrypted?
Is this communication secure? eg if someone is sitting on the wire sniffing
the packets, would they be able to extract the key ?
Or is the security of the communication done through the ACL and the key is
TSIG only used to allow me to make changes to the zone file?
The main reason why I was leaning towards SSH was to try to ensure that all
communication between local & remote was encrypted.
Rgds,
Greg.
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
Hi Greg,
In regards to the nsupdate, what is the best way to secure the
connection,
so to ensure that only my local server can make the amendments to the
remote server named & zone files?
I dont want anyone/anything else other than my local machine to make
any
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
changes on my remote BIND server.
You should create a TSIG key, and configure the zones on the remote
server to only accept dynamic DNS updates signed by this key. And then
use this key with nsupdate when sending your updates. Check the man page
of nsupdate and look at the '-k' and '-y' options for using tsig keys.
You can additionally also configure your remote BIND to accept updates
only from certain IP addresses. For details on how to configure this,
please read the excellent documentation (especially section 4.2.29 and
https://bind9.readthedocs.io/en/v9_16/
Regards,
Anand Buddhdev
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------------------------------
Message: 3
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 16:32:48 +0200
Subject: Re: Using RNDC to control remote access to my BIND server
Content-Type: text/plain; charset=utf-8
Hi Greg,
a TSIG key is *never* transmitted. A sender uses a TSIG key to generate
a secure hash over the DNS content being sent, and sends the hash along
with the DNS content. A receiver configured with the same key can then
verify that hash. If it can, then it can apply the DNS content.
If someone is sniffing the wire between the client and server, they can
see the DNS content. This usually doesn't matter, because the DNS is
usually public anyway. However, if a man-in-the-middle tries to modify
the packet in any way, then the receiver will detect the change, because
the hash will not verify, and the receiver can reject that packet as
invalid.
DNS was NOT designed to be encrypted, because as I wrote above, it's
usually public data anyway.
If you want to encrypt your dynamic DNS update anyway (even though
there's good reason to do this), then you need to send your update over
an encrypted session of some kind. The DNS protocol itself has recently
been updated to allow for encryption, using DTLS (DNS-over-TLS). But
while DNS resolvers can use this to send queries to suitably configured
servers, I don't think "nsupdate" can use DTLS just yet (someone please
correct me if I'm wrong). So your only alternative is to use another
secure protocol, such as SSH, with port forwarding, to send your dynamic
updates to the server.
BUT AGAIN, there is usually no need for this. Do NOT overcomplicate your
design for no reason.
Regards,
Anand
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
Thanks Anand.
When using this TSIG solution is the key visible (clear) within the DNS
packet being sent to the remote server or is it encrypted?
Is this communication secure? eg if someone is sitting on the wire
sniffing
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
the packets, would they be able to extract the key ?
Or is the security of the communication done through the ACL and the key
is
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
TSIG only used to allow me to make changes to the zone file?
The main reason why I was leaning towards SSH was to try to ensure that
all
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
communication between local & remote was encrypted.
Rgds,
Greg.
Hi Greg,
In regards to the nsupdate, what is the best way to secure the
connection,
so to ensure that only my local server can make the amendments to the
remote server named & zone files?
I dont want anyone/anything else other than my local machine to make
any
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
changes on my remote BIND server.
You should create a TSIG key, and configure the zones on the remote
server to only accept dynamic DNS updates signed by this key. And then
use this key with nsupdate when sending your updates. Check the man page
of nsupdate and look at the '-k' and '-y' options for using tsig keys.
You can additionally also configure your remote BIND to accept updates
only from certain IP addresses. For details on how to configure this,
please read the excellent documentation (especially section 4.2.29 and
https://bind9.readthedocs.io/en/v9_16/
Regards,
Anand Buddhdev
------------------------------
Message: 4
Date: Mon, 26 Apr 2021 14:46:07 +0000
Subject: How to interpret BIND 9 JSON Counters
<
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii"
Hi All,
Wonder if you can help, I'm looking to input the BIND 9 JSON stats file to
our OSS PM tool and I need some basic information on the counter types.
Looking at the various counters I need to understand whether they are of
type gauge (a snapshot in time) or counter (we need to calculate the delta
between the last and the last but one values received).
I think they are gauge but would be great if you can confirm.
Additionally is there guidance on how the Network Elements and the time
would be aggregated. Would they be aggregated by sum?
Please feedback if my ask isn't clear. I hope you can help.
BR,
Dom Brown
07577 272977
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Tony Finch
2021-04-26 15:35:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Ivan Avery Frey
I'm trying to obtain certificates from Let's Encrypt using the DNS-01
challenge method.
I just want to confirm that there is no option to configure the
directory for the .jnl files independently of the zone files.
You have had a bunch of helpful replies already, but your question
suggests to me that you might be making things more difficult than they
need to be. I have tried out configurations with non-default journal names
and I've decided it's more trouble than it is worth. For example, I added
the -J option to named-compilezone to improve support for custom journal
names, but the -j option for default journals is significantly more
convenient. And it's much nicer when I don't have journal options in every
zone{} clause in my config.

I know what they say about assuming, but I'm going to guess that you want
to put the jounal in a different directory because `named` complained that
it did not have write access to the directory containing your zone file.
If I'm right, you will soon find that `named` also wants to overwrite your
zone file, and the message I sent yesterday will probably be helpful:

https://lists.isc.org/pipermail/bind-users/2021-April/104472.html

Tony.
--
f.anthony.n.finch <***@dotat.at> https://dotat.at/
Dover, Wight, Portland, Plymouth, North Biscay: Easterly or
northeasterly 5 to 7, decreasing 3 or 4 later, then becoming variable
later. Slight or moderate, becoming smooth or slight, occasionally
rough at first in Plymouth and north Biscay. Fair. Good.

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